Wet Panties: Awkward Flattery or Sexual Harassment?

There probably is a bit of a double standard here, but since women are usually the victims in these cases, and it was a relatively innocent and non-threatening comment, she should get a pass on this one.

I disagree. There are probably just as many cases of men being sexually harassed (with the current definition), it's just that they do not get reported as often. How many guys do you know that have ever complained of being sexually harassed? Is it because it doesn't happen or because men won't (for whatever reason) report it.

I've worked in offices with mostly men and ones with mostly women. It has been my observation that women are just as likely to say something that is sexully crude or inappropriate.

If you don't report it because it didn't bother you: It wasn't sexual harassment.

If it bothers you and you don't report it because you're scared to do so (for whatever reason) it probably qualifies.

I think it's always a good idea (especially if it happens a second time) to say -- "that makes me uncomfortable" -- if it does.

That way, if it continues, there's no doubt that it can and should be reported.

Blatant sexual harassment.

Regardless of individual instances where no one was offended, this crosses the line. Any statement made that explicitly and in this case graphically states "You make me sexually aroused" should be considered harassment. Sexual harassment is only a problem because people do not know where these limits are.

There are social situations that provide the opportunity to say something like this as long as there is some sort of reciprocal romantic feeling existing between the two parties.

All of that said, if it had been said to me, I would have awkwardly shrugged it off and probably told some of my friends (both male and female). But I'm a pretty easy-going guy. Many people would find comments even less explicit than this offensive and it is important to respect those boundaries both inside and outside the workplace.

| Any statement made that explicitly and in this case graphically states "You make me sexually aroused" should be considered harassment.

I don't call it harassment when girlfriend says that to me.

Seriously, when did compliments become harassment. It's one thing if a boss says "Nice ass" to his secretary and she says "Thanks, please don't ever say that again." If said boss does say that again, then it's harassment, but the first time, it's just a damn compliment.

Oh... and I voted "sexual harassment" because my personal feeling is that if it is not okay for one gender in a certain circumstance then it in all fairness is not okay for the other in the same circumstance. I know that many men might take a woman saying his voice moistened her panties to mean she wanted some proverbial coffee later on that evening and I'm sure that some women would take the same approach if a man, however your example is inter-gender. If a man said that my voice turned him on, I wouldn't be offended but depending on the context, I'd feel harassed. If it isn't okay for me to feel harassed by a man, then its not okay for me to feel harassed by a woman either. Again, though, context and I guess number of instances plays a role in the overall choice as well. Perhaps in any example the intent of hte person wasn't to be aggressive or to make you feel uncomfortable, so I'd simply rely on the preventative measure of telling them that "I am flattered they feel that way but..."

That would wreck (or at least severely damage) any claims of sexual harassment. If a woman chuckled at a man's "hard-on" comment, the same rule would probably apply.

I wouldn't be surpised if a woman couldn't say something like, "I didn't know what to do. I was so shocked I just tried to laugh it off," and then come back later and sue the man for sexual harassment.

True enough, Jason, and a woman would have an easier time coming back from it with that explanation than a man would. Nonetheless, in both cases it might cause enough doubt to prevent effects that are too serious. I suppose HR would be the ones to know the most.

Nonetheless, in both cases it might cause enough doubt to prevent effects that are too serious.

I would hope so.

Sexual harassment is something I am particularly sensitive about as I was accused of it by a lady that worked for my wife. This lady had been arrested for stealing money from the office (she's since been convicted) and she accused me and a couple of other men of sexually harassing her. Even though I knew it wasn't true (she was 58+...ewwww) it was scary to think what a simple accusation could do to my reputation.

she was 58+...ewwww

Although it's a pretty common sentiment, there's nothing in the term 'sexual harassment' that actually requires attraction or flattery. It's probably easier to say inappropriate things to someone you're not attracted to in a sexual way (same gender or large age gap). I have no reason to think that you did anything inappropriate, Jason (on the contrary, I find you very open and honest). I just wanted to make mention of a common mistake in discussing sexual harassment; one that ends up getting a lot of folks in trouble.

she was 58+...ewwww

Thank you for being so open about your low opinion of older women. And I'm sure all the older women on Newsvine appreciate knowing this about you.

@ Jason:

Thanks. I realize sexual harassment knows no age boundaries. It was more of a tongue in cheek comment that if I was going to harass someone I would pick someone closer to my own age (31). But I do appreciate your comment. I should be more careful to clarify my comments.

@ Gwenny:

See the above comment. It was a joke.

@ Gwenny:

See the above comment. It was a joke.

::gives you a fierce look:: Okay. I'm glad I fire off my first response then. Especially with all the crap I get because I won't date someone under 35, I'm touchy about age.

Generally, when I hear/read someone my age saying "ewwwww" like an eight year old, I tend to think of it as a joke. I think we're on the same page here as far as that goes.

As for age differences in attraction, there's no accounting for one's taste. Personally, I've got a fairly limited window: anyone of an age that could be either my parent or child generally repulses me. Certainly, others may feel very differently.

Regardless of age or gender though, I find it best to never discuss my underwear with anyone in a work environment. You might say I'm being overly cautious, but that rule has served me well.

Thank you for being so open about your low opinion of older women.

I don't recall him saying he had a low opinion of older women.

I think he said he wasn't physically turned on by older women, or sexually attracted to them. Further, I would also guess that few other people Jason's age (or even several years older) would admit to having a physical attraction to someone with that sort of an age difference. (And, if you were being honest, I suspect you wouldn't have either as a 25-35 year old.)

While it may have been somewhat inconsiderate to say so in mixed company (which might include someone of that age) -- I don't think you can twist his words in the way you have.

Also, a person of that age is likely to bring to mind images of our grandparents or parents, and so it is perfectly acceptable to not enjoy sexual advances for that reason. We're brought up to think of the elderly in a certain fashion: And "sex" isn't really a part of that.

Further -- I think it's pretty gross to think about my parents having sex, and I'd say "ewww" if I heard them talking about their desire to do so (and must now burn out my mind's eye) but that doesn't mean I have a low opinion about my parents.

Odd. I've always been told menopause is the only reliable form of birth control. Maybe your grandparents have some friends who are willing to be more than "just friends".

It's a sad commentary on the state of our culture that a comment like this can generate so much debate. The comment was shocking and totally inappropriate for the situation, but was the trainer really injured by this one time statement? To actually consider reporting someone for this is utterly ridiculous.

Everyone, and I do mean everyone, makes statements that can be considered inappropriate at one time or another. Many of us have made statements we wish we could retract immediately. At those times aren't you grateful when the person on the receiving end cuts you some slack?

Is it in our collective best interest to punish or censure every perceived misstatement someone makes to us? In a world with so many real problems, don't we have something better to focus on. Jesus H Christ!

See, there it is right there. The reason there needs to be a double standard. Every single one of us thought at some point "cool" "he's gonna score"
and we all played out a little fantasy in our heads (in mine she was asian, had a short skir on and white cotton...)
well you get the picture.
Anyway, I seriously doubt that many women would find a similar comment flattering or a turn on; but most men would.

Sexual harrassment?
I don't think so, the author doesn't seem to believe that the workplace became hostile to him, he wasn't taken advantage of by a person more powerful than him, etc.

Anyway, I seriously doubt that many women would find a similar comment flattering or a turn on; but most men would.

Because women are aculturated to repress their natural sexuality, to view all men as villians out to steal their sacred hymen. I would have been amused to have a man say something like that to me and I would have laugh merrily and thanked him. I might even have invited him out for a drink.

AND, I am not a normal woman. We have established that.

fair enough, for the sake of discussion we can blame nurture as the cause. That doesn't negate the existing narrative and power differential.
You don't seem to disagree that most women would be repulsed and most men would be turned on to some degree.

You don't seem to disagree that most women would be repulsed and most men would be turned on to some degree.

Did I say I disagreed? No, you are right. But I consider almost all other women to be deeply damaged and unable to function in a healthy way sexually. As I have often said, I would be a lesbian, but women are freaking nuts.

he wasn't taken advantage of by a person more powerful than him

But...I thought sexual harassment had nothing to do with relative rank or power? It's been established that the most powerful person in an organization can use their power to prey on starry-eyed young women, and it's not sexual harassment if the woman's career advancement isn't jeopardized and the workplace doesn't become hostile.

Oh, You're buried married. Got it.

You don't really need to go out with her, Division. I'm sure she'd appreciate some phone sex. Let's face it, it's your voice that gets her wet. :-)

But I consider almost all other women to be deeply damaged and unable to function in a healthy way sexually.

Thank you for being so open about your low opinion of all other women. I'm sure all of the other women will appreciate knowing that you feel they are sexually repressed.

:P

I don't think I would go out with this particular coworker unless accompanied by a chaperone!

This is known as "loving your marriage enough to protect it. Good show.

Thank you for being so open about your low opinion of all other women. I'm sure all of the other women will appreciate knowing that you feel they are sexually repressed.

At least I can articulate exactly what I think and not resort to "eeeew".

Wow Gwenny. Why are you attacking me again? I thought I made it clear it was a little bit of humor.

At least I can articulate exactly what I think and not resort to "eeeew".

No, you just resort to 3rd grade retorts. You might as well have said, "Oh yeah! Well I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

At least I can articulate exactly what I think and not resort to "eeeew".

Indeed. You articulated your insulting generalization of all other women very well.

Clap clap clap. Clap.

But, I'm not sure that "wording your insulting comments" better makes them more acceptable, especially after chiding someone else in the very same thread.

I'm not sure why Gwenny just doesn't state that she isn't a "normal" older woman and can therefore be exempt from the "eeewwww" comment.

I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

It turns out that this analogical tautology was fatally flawed all along. Sometimes rubber is sticky while other times glue will not adhere. If I am A and you are B, and A attracts C while B repels it, the statement would be true. But sometimes, A repels C while B attracts C, so since A cannot be B, the statement must be false. Just food for thought the next time you're having a playground fight at recess.

Mick,

I will keep that in mind. :-)

"Your voice makes my panties wet" is a synonym for "You have a really sexy voice." I think you were taking it out of context, Div. Just because she was talking about wet panties doesn't mean she was even flirting at all.

I use "wet panties" as part of my every-day vocabulary, and I'm not even a girl. I can't imagine what would happen if everyone suddenly started getting offended by it.

(Oh, "wet panties" is also used in one of Clear Channel's song lyrics, so it's played over the radio several times a day on more than a few different radio stations. Yeah, "wet panties" is more of a generic term, according to current American culture.)

For the record, I don't think I've ever said "wet panties" in my life. And I am a girl.

Although I'm very curious what Div's voice sounds like.. :)

well, div...in that case.....

Well, I think it's high time you uploaded a sound clip of your voice

my friends describe my voice as a blend of James Earl Jones and Barry White.

Then you are probably missing out on a lucrative career doing voice-over work. And just think how much you could make recording audio books of steamy romance novels.

There you go D/0. How could you miss an opp to get some more panties wet. I'm a guy - rest assured it won't work on me.

Before some of you start screaming down the tube, it's all in humour :-)

Calvin - this seems like an opportunity if Newsvine could make it easier for guys like D/0 to 'feed' the tubes. The prospect of a shared experience of wet panties to some members of the community brings tears to my eyes:-)

If that was the worst thing that happened to you that day, I'd say you had a pretty good day.

Maybe my sense of the problem is skewed, but firms are so hyper-sensitive, to even the possibility of an incident. Too often it seems that the punishments do not fit the crimes. Someone should really pose a threat before management is involved, I think.

I remember when I was younger, some guy made a reference to me shaving his genitals at work.

You should have showed up the next day with a straight razor and a look of determination on your face.

I remember when I was younger, some guy made a reference to me shaving his genitals at work.

I asked one of my classmates at school if he shaved his genitals. I was just curious, because most men don't, but I knew a few who had a similar personality as him who had. Also, I heard questions like that are still considered somewhat taboo in America, and I wanted to get rid of that taboo (want something done, gotta do it yourself).

For your information, I'm not gay.

Well, there's a difference between demanding that she be fired and just reporting it. Most of the time if you report something they just take it down on record and talk to the person to tell them it's not okay. That's hardly ruining their life, and it would probably benefit her in the long run.

It would be terrible to screw up her life and job over one isolated comment.

Oh, with sexual harassment laws and suits these days, we're all potential rapists. We can't ever risk someone living and learning.

Oddly, I agree with Stacy.

Personally if I get offended with someone I tell them first. It's just how I was raised - "nip it in the bud", as it were. However, if that failed, then making a proper report would be the next step, but I'd tell them I was aiming a report (be upfront about yourself). Reporting someone usually only angers them a little but in all, there is no real direct effect on the persons job in the long term.

You have a better chance og turning someone around by reporting it, than you do by letting it go when it really honestly DOES offend you. Of course there are extenuating circumstances to it, depending on level of harassment. Obviously verbal harassment takes a back seat to physical harassment, so on and so forth.

While the thought crossed my mind, it kind of perpetuates the problem and solves nothing other than a personal fantasy - which in this situation... isn't the proper course.

If the situation were reversed it might be taken more seriously, yes - but I've noticed more and more women actually working towards tearing down the double standards. If it is wrong for a man to do then under the same circumstances it is wrong for a woman to do. I can get behind that because it doesn't make it MORE okay for one sex than the other - its equally wrong for either party.

That remark was certainly not appropriate in a work environment, but I can't see how it could be called sexual harassment. The person making the comment had no power over you (in the sense of authority). She could not expect to compel any particular response from you.

See... Sexual harassment isn't dictated by the position of the person making the advance or remark. A subordinate can be sexually harassing a superior - position has no bearing, though was more commonly done by superiors.

Another reason it would not be considered harassment is that you were unlikely to be offended by the remark.

Aside from that, the person making the remark really had no way of knowing if her remark would offend or at least alarm the author.

It was a poor judgment call no matter how you look at it, and it likely ISNT sexual harassment because the author didn't take offense to it, but again, there was no way of knowing that prior to making the statement.

If a subordinate harasses me, I can terminate the employment of the subordinate (or cause the subordinate's employment to be terminated). In that sense, I cannot be unwillingly harassed by a subordinate.

If an employee complains of harassment by a superior or by a co-worker, management is expected to intervene to correct the situation. Failure of management to correct the situation can result in significant cost to management.

If a manager fails to act to correct harassment to him/herself, how can that manager effectively argue that he/she failed to be protected by management?

If a subordinate harasses me, I can terminate the employment of the subordinate (or cause the subordinate's employment to be terminated). In that sense, I cannot be unwillingly harassed by a subordinate.

This can be tricky. First you've got to establish a good reason to terminate the employment. These days a single or first time offense of harassment won't cut it because the subordinate can retort with the fact steps were missed, they weren't aware what they did was harassment.

As you point out here:

If an employee complains of harassment by a superior or by a co-worker, management is expected to intervene to correct the situation. Failure of management to correct the situation can result in significant cost to management.

Most of the weight in this situation is borne by management. It is their job to ensure HR and PR issues get handled properly and effectively. If an employee harasses another employee then I agree.. the management has a duty to rectify the situation according to SOP. However, if an employee complains of harassment by a superior there is still the burden of proof. Some cases have been filed against management in some companies that turned out to be false. They were trying to ruin management because the employee didn't get that raise or was disciplined on a totally unrelated topic. I've seen that happen.

f a manager fails to act to correct harassment to him/herself, how can that manager effectively argue that he/she failed to be protected by management?

I'm not sure I completely understand what you've said, but how I interpret it is that you are asking - If a manager is called out on an infraction, how can they correct themselves and be believed that they've done it.

They can't. this is why most companies have an "open door policy" and a hotline. In an "open door policy", an employee can go to someone higher than the management they have an issue with without fear of repercussions. For example, if I was your manager, and I harassed you, you could go to MY boss and file a complaint without worrying about me blocking it or trying to cover it up. Then, some companies like the one my wife works for has a corporate hotline to make complaints such as this and it is SOP for the comapny to follow up on EVERY complaint made regardless of how minor it is. There are special employees that handle these things that are outside of management chains altogether.

If you were asking - how can a manager protect themselves... the answer is pretty much the same thing. Nothing stops a manager from making a complaint to their superiors about something an employee did. When it comes to harassment companies put everyone on a even level - employment hierarchy is dissolved to deal with it on a more personal and effective level.

Shawn Gordon,

What I meant about management was this. If a manager is harassed by a subordinate, the manager has the authority to correct the situation. If the manager fails to correct the situation, the manager has the same right as any other employee to complain to their management -- but to what point?

If I as a manager fail to correct a situation where a subordinate harasses me, how can I effectively file a complaint to my management? They will respond correctly that I have the authority to correct the situation and should have done so.

That is why an employee cannot effectively harass a supervisor. The supervisor has the authority to correct the situation.

[As with all broad statements, there is an exception. If a subordinate has unusual influence over my supervisor (a physical relationship or perhaps kinship to my manager), that subordinate may be able to harass me with impunity, since I know better than to make my boss mad.] In such a case, I would be able to file a complaint and expect my manager to resolve the situation.

Ok.. I see

If I as a manager fail to correct a situation where a subordinate harasses me, how can I effectively file a complaint to my management? They will respond correctly that I have the authority to correct the situation and should have done so.

It goes back to open door policy. Since you were the victim, yes, you should make an effor to correct it, but you also have a duty to report it. I'ts part of CYA (cover your ass). Mostly though I see your point and it would pose a sticky situation

This is a very slippery slope. One day she's got "wet panties", next thing you know she's wearing diapers and driving across state lines to kidnap your s.o. It's hard to tell who's crazy out there. This is a case of harassment...

Personally, I'd still just see that as flattery, but I would've taken the original comment as flattery too.

I suppose I thought that hypothetical would get more response as a discussion because the double standard between genders is pretty obvious to most people here. Oh well.